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teetertotter57
January 5, 2022
Yeast Water:
I plan on experimenting with the baker's math and yeast water. There is a really cute kid with a fun accent on youtube PPG Baker for anyone interested in tackling yeast water. The other is Cook Like a German.
Anyhow, this was very helpful and I can't wait to play with what I've learned here. The baker's math works just as I thought it would regarding the 4 preferments discussed in your article. I assume it will work with the yeast water by considering the liquid.
Thank you, so much for writing this. I'm thankful I stumbled onto it. If you have any tips, please feel free to email me. I'm on your list.
I plan on experimenting with the baker's math and yeast water. There is a really cute kid with a fun accent on youtube PPG Baker for anyone interested in tackling yeast water. The other is Cook Like a German.
Anyhow, this was very helpful and I can't wait to play with what I've learned here. The baker's math works just as I thought it would regarding the 4 preferments discussed in your article. I assume it will work with the yeast water by considering the liquid.
Thank you, so much for writing this. I'm thankful I stumbled onto it. If you have any tips, please feel free to email me. I'm on your list.
Stephanie C.
July 16, 2021
another question, this is about the measurement. Sorry...I studied applied math..so if it comes down to math problem then I go crazy..
you said, just for example, like biga, I think you use cups and spoon measurement to match the final number. so somehow, I am adapting the ciabatta recipe up there, if I use cups as a measurement when flour is 100% that is 2 1/4 c, and its 55% is 1.2375 cups which is just a little over a cup of water, so the recipe calls 1 cup approximately, and 1/4 tsp as 0.25 % of yeast. so it looks ok to me. but if I use OZ as a measurement then the story is different. when flour is used 9.55 oz as a 100%, then water should be used only
5.25oz to meet its 55% requirement. and yeast should be used only o.o2 oz. so my question is which measure should I use?... the recipe that I know is using poolish to make NY style bagels, and its poolish recipe is 272G flour to 272 G water and 1/4 tsp of yeast. so using two different metrics. Gram and spoon. ...hmm am I going to far?...
it some math problem seizes my ankle I can't help it but I need to know exactly. and there is no one who is smart enough to know about baking science but you right now.
Please..help me...
you said, just for example, like biga, I think you use cups and spoon measurement to match the final number. so somehow, I am adapting the ciabatta recipe up there, if I use cups as a measurement when flour is 100% that is 2 1/4 c, and its 55% is 1.2375 cups which is just a little over a cup of water, so the recipe calls 1 cup approximately, and 1/4 tsp as 0.25 % of yeast. so it looks ok to me. but if I use OZ as a measurement then the story is different. when flour is used 9.55 oz as a 100%, then water should be used only
5.25oz to meet its 55% requirement. and yeast should be used only o.o2 oz. so my question is which measure should I use?... the recipe that I know is using poolish to make NY style bagels, and its poolish recipe is 272G flour to 272 G water and 1/4 tsp of yeast. so using two different metrics. Gram and spoon. ...hmm am I going to far?...
it some math problem seizes my ankle I can't help it but I need to know exactly. and there is no one who is smart enough to know about baking science but you right now.
Please..help me...
Duskmirror
March 25, 2023
That’s why i always use metric measurement when baking, oz spoons and cups is like comparing apples and oranges, it doesn't make sense. When i see a recipe saying use 5 grams of yeast, 4 table spoon of sugar, 1/2 oz of salt, and 4 cups of flour, i don’t even try to figure this out, i just go to an other recipe where measurement make sense. A cup of flour is about 120 grams to 150 grams depending how packed it is, so using bakers math will never work, you can never tell if your dough is 60% hydration because water is always 1 gram to one millilitres. If you have 1000 gram of flour and 600 gram of water then you know for sure that your dough is 60% hydration.
Stephanie C.
July 16, 2021
just out of curiosity...as a chef and baker, especially bagels. I use a sourdough starter or as you mentioned, poolish since the bagel's hydration is pretty low. I am wondering you said that poolish is usually 1:1:0.25 Ratio, but the pita's poolish recipe isn't 100% water to 100% flour. I am not a pita expert so I am just confused..can you tell me why?
Michel
May 26, 2021
Very happy to have found this article. But why ounces!!!
teetertotter57
January 5, 2022
Probably because most Americans work in ounces. I wondered the same thing. I can't seem to think in grams when I'm looking at cups and measuring spoons. But I prefer to work in grams. Much more accurate and consistent.
Mikeydc2020
April 10, 2021
HI,
Can I use my sourdough starter in place of instant yeast for the 4 preferments that you listed? I am trying to get away from using instant yeast.
Can I use my sourdough starter in place of instant yeast for the 4 preferments that you listed? I am trying to get away from using instant yeast.
teetertotter57
January 5, 2022
Not sure why I don't see answers to questions, but I would think baker's math would apply. You would need to consider the hydration of your starter. My starter is 50g flour, 50g water, 50g starter. You would need to remove the flour/water from the starter, as well as the flour/water from your preferment from your original recipe.
She didn't discuss sourdough starter, but it was the 5th one, so it would be treated like all the others as far as the math goes. Hope this makes sense. It does in my head.
She didn't discuss sourdough starter, but it was the 5th one, so it would be treated like all the others as far as the math goes. Hope this makes sense. It does in my head.
mhebert
January 12, 2021
How much pâté fermentée should I keep for my next loaf? What does 7 or 8 g of dry yeast is equal to in PF?
I plan on converting my favorite recipe.
My recipe also uses milk so how do I covert water to milk? Can I use milk instead in my pre-ferments or do I need to use powdered milk?
Thanks
Bread baking is my new addiction!!!
I plan on converting my favorite recipe.
My recipe also uses milk so how do I covert water to milk? Can I use milk instead in my pre-ferments or do I need to use powdered milk?
Thanks
Bread baking is my new addiction!!!
teetertotter57
January 5, 2022
I would think it alright. I think the article read to pinch off a bit for baking the next day. I don't think it was meant to keep for any length of time, like a sourdough starter.
The pinch of dough will continue to rise, even in the fridge if kept for more than a day. I'm not sure it would last more than a few days.
The pinch of dough will continue to rise, even in the fridge if kept for more than a day. I'm not sure it would last more than a few days.
Jessie
January 19, 2022
It does though. I did keep about 50g once, in the fridge, in a sealed container, and 3 months later in using half of it to make a new starter for, hopefully, new loaf of bread day after tomorrow.
cecilia
June 28, 2020
Hi Erin, This is a great topic. However my confusion was. At the beginning one of the purpose of converting to use pre-ferment is that less yeast can be used. but how is that be? the yeast amount that is used is remain the same just that it is divided to pre-ferment and the dough? please clear me up :)) thank you!!
Michel
May 26, 2021
I had the same thought. I have seen recipes where the amount of yeast used in the poolish is so small you can count the individual granules. I am going to try the math above but when it comes to the yeast I will reduce by half
candzgo
June 1, 2020
This is a great article. But I have a question, can you do a preferment using milk instead of water if milk is the liquid of choice in the recipe? If not, how would you adapt the recipe to include a preferement.
Duskmirror
March 25, 2023
I did try milk for preferment, it worked great in my hamburger bun recipes. I use 100 grams of milk to 100 grams of flour and 1 gram of yeast, i put it in the fridge for 3 days then used it in my recipes. It turned out it was the best hamburger bun i ever made.
Thriftymom1973
May 5, 2020
I am SOOOO excited to have found your video on Gluten that led me here. I have been trying to find information about this subject that is reliable and easy to understand. so excited to dig deeper. I read through this and probably missed it but which type of preferment would you say rustic pizza crust falls under? I have been working for years to find the perfect crust.
I also wanted to tell you that this will come in handy for my kids as well. They love to bake and cook and because we homeschool, this will be incorporated into some of their lessons. #WeDoUseMathInRealLife
I also wanted to tell you that this will come in handy for my kids as well. They love to bake and cook and because we homeschool, this will be incorporated into some of their lessons. #WeDoUseMathInRealLife
Michael F.
April 29, 2020
Thank you for the article, very informative. I would like to learn more about hydration as well. What is the reason you use ounces rather than grams? I thought metric is more precise.
Chabarang
March 8, 2020
Thank you for a very thorough and informative article! I am new to the world of preferments; your article was a fantastic intro!
Since I am into using natural yeasts, what would be the use of a preferment? Or do I skip everything and simply follow the sourdough recipes? I want to gain as much flavor as possible, so any tips on how to get that from natural yeast starters only would be appreciated. Thanks!
Since I am into using natural yeasts, what would be the use of a preferment? Or do I skip everything and simply follow the sourdough recipes? I want to gain as much flavor as possible, so any tips on how to get that from natural yeast starters only would be appreciated. Thanks!
Dchurchill1
December 30, 2018
Your recipes for biga and polish do not align with your bakers percentages.
Paul
May 4, 2018
You say sponge needs more yeast due to shorter ferment time (30-90 min), but in article it has the same 1% yeast as the pate fermente (15-18 hrs)? What am I missing?
smita
June 26, 2017
Thank you for this article, it is quite helpful in my present journey to learn to understand and use poolish, biga etc.
I have two general questions. One is, how would you choose a kind of pre ferment over the other if you wanted to adapt a recipe? A poolish or biga or pate fermente?
The second general question is regarding using preferments vs bulk retardation.
Up till now I have had such great success with bulk retardation. I mix the dough, give it one rise at ambient temp. deflate and stick it in the fridge overnight or longer and the taste and texture of the final bread is so much improved. In my home there is no comparison between a dough that just got one rise at room temperature the shaped, proofed and baked and one that got an additional long slow rise in fridge. Even with enriched doughs, such as brioche (rich or light), sweet doughs such as for cinnamon rolls and doughs that have pumpkin or sweet potato I have repeatedly found this to be the case. And certainly for lean simple doughs like pizza, baguette, some flat breads, this is very true.
So my question is, can you achieve by bulk retardation what you do using a preferment? Shouldn’t it be the same chemistry going on? Which begs the question, if I were to do the reverse and merge the ingredients in a bread recipe that calls for a separate pre ferment at mix it all at once and do a long bulk retardation would I not make a similar bread?
Thank you!
I have two general questions. One is, how would you choose a kind of pre ferment over the other if you wanted to adapt a recipe? A poolish or biga or pate fermente?
The second general question is regarding using preferments vs bulk retardation.
Up till now I have had such great success with bulk retardation. I mix the dough, give it one rise at ambient temp. deflate and stick it in the fridge overnight or longer and the taste and texture of the final bread is so much improved. In my home there is no comparison between a dough that just got one rise at room temperature the shaped, proofed and baked and one that got an additional long slow rise in fridge. Even with enriched doughs, such as brioche (rich or light), sweet doughs such as for cinnamon rolls and doughs that have pumpkin or sweet potato I have repeatedly found this to be the case. And certainly for lean simple doughs like pizza, baguette, some flat breads, this is very true.
So my question is, can you achieve by bulk retardation what you do using a preferment? Shouldn’t it be the same chemistry going on? Which begs the question, if I were to do the reverse and merge the ingredients in a bread recipe that calls for a separate pre ferment at mix it all at once and do a long bulk retardation would I not make a similar bread?
Thank you!
Michael M.
February 8, 2017
This article on preferments was very informative. There is , however, one thing that would probably help most of us with kitchen scales, and that is to have the weights in grams rather than fractions of ounces. I would think that the average home scale would not measure fractions of ounces.
Thanks-
Thanks-
JuJu
May 1, 2017
Hi, Michael...in this case, the ounces are not fluid ounces, but net weight ounces. Digital kitchen scales have a unit of measurement that is lb, oz, as well as grams, millimeters, etc.. There are some very good and reasonably-priced ones on the market, these days. Just do a search for reviews on kitchen scales to see what is available.
Paul
September 15, 2016
Hi,
Very interesting article. However, I think your math is wrong for the yeast calculations. In your example you multiply by 0.025, which would be 2.5%. Instead, you should multiply by 0.0025 for the 0.25%
Very interesting article. However, I think your math is wrong for the yeast calculations. In your example you multiply by 0.025, which would be 2.5%. Instead, you should multiply by 0.0025 for the 0.25%
Jim
June 27, 2016
Since the yeast multiplies in the biga or poolish, why don't you have to shrink the total yeast used when converting a recipe to a preferment? In this article's example, aren't you effectively adding much more yeast than the original recipe called for?
JuJu
May 2, 2017
Beginner home beer brewers ask that same question all the time.
There is a term known as the "crabtree effect" in the fermentation process for both doughs and home brews that goes into a lot more scientific detail.
However, more briefly, yeast goes through an optimal number of cycles when multiplying, and it is that optimal growth of more than just one healthy yeast cell in a starter that not only produces a better flavor, but gives the dough a jump start, also reducing kneading time.
There is a term known as the "crabtree effect" in the fermentation process for both doughs and home brews that goes into a lot more scientific detail.
However, more briefly, yeast goes through an optimal number of cycles when multiplying, and it is that optimal growth of more than just one healthy yeast cell in a starter that not only produces a better flavor, but gives the dough a jump start, also reducing kneading time.
Jenny
June 14, 2016
This article is awesome. I read a couple days ago about Poolish on Weekend Bakery and I have been wanting to know more. Thank you.
I have one question, for the sponge, you said that it is used in enriched doughs, so does this mean I can use it for a brioche or Babka?
I have one question, for the sponge, you said that it is used in enriched doughs, so does this mean I can use it for a brioche or Babka?
AntoniaJames
June 10, 2016
Example of two different conversions - to adapt a standard recipe with no levain using commercial yeast only, to one substituting levain for a portion of the flour and liquid -- can be found in comments by Rivka and by me, 4 years ago, in this early (2010) Your Best Bread finalist recipe: https://food52.com/recipes/4022-buttermilk-oatmeal-bread ;o)
An updated version with metric mass and volume units is here: https://food52.com/recipes/40561-buttermilk-oatmeal-bread-updated (I could not revise the original one as it was locked by the editors, as all finalist recipes are.)
An updated version with metric mass and volume units is here: https://food52.com/recipes/40561-buttermilk-oatmeal-bread-updated (I could not revise the original one as it was locked by the editors, as all finalist recipes are.)
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