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Rosalind P.
February 22, 2020
This is a request for information about pie doughs/pastry to the expert and knowledgable chefs in the Food 52 world. After years of abysmal failure at making any kind of pie crust, I had a series of epiphanies (from reading and testing) that led me to have ONE successful method for flaky crust and ONE successful method for what I call crumbly (as opposed to flaky.) And ONE successful method for puff pastry (a subset, I guess, of flaky.) Now when I bake pies, I use my tried and true methods rather than the one(s) given in the recipe. MY QUESTION: how do I recognize, from the recipe alone, whether the crust is in the flaky category (the American pie dough?) or in the "crumbly" category n -- "tart dough?" , so I can use my own method, which is foolproof (for me.) And, a related question: which category is pate brisee? Which one is pate sucree? Is "tart dough" always the crumbly one? I have tried to recognize which is which; usually, if there is an egg involved, I assume it's crumbly. If it's only flour, fat and water I assume it's flaky. So a plea to you experts out there to help me understand. Thank you!!
Smaug
February 22, 2020
Sounds like you're doing pretty well actually. I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I've made a zillion pies and tarts and I'll tell you what you can. First off, pate sucree and pate brisee (and a few other "pates") are tart doughs. Traditionally, an American pie dough is a 3/1 ratio (by volume) of flour to fat, while a tart dough is 2/1, but modern chefs, in their attempt to stuff as much fat as possible into everything, are ramping that number up in pie doughs. You are right about the egg/ water (though I've seen tart doughs using small amounts of water or milk)- the water promotes gluten development, a certain amount of which is necessary to support a flaky structure. Pie dough recipes will usually instruct you to leave fairly large pieces ("the size of peas"), while tart doughs need an even mix. Tart shells are generally made without a rim, at most they're built up a bit above the edge of the pan, but often they're just cut off flush- so if there's talk of crimping the rim or some such it would be a pie shell. I've never come across a tart with a top crust. Probably forgetting some stuff, but I hope that helps. A caveat- in the internet age, cooking (as with all the arts) is pretty much all fusion in one way or another, and you'll find hybrids of one sort or another. Usually the recipe will give some pretty clear indications (another one- if they give storebought dough as an option it would be pie dough, at least in America), but as long as your shell will contain the filling you'll be fine, even if you miss the recipe writer's intention.
Smaug
February 21, 2020
I have mostly used this in the past for doughs that were disinclined to come together- particularly nut based doughs such as for Linzer torte. However, I saw a recommendation to use it for galettes (with an otherwise fairly standard American type crust recipe) to produce a somewhat sturdier crust; I tried it and was surprised how flaky and tender the crust turned out. I also tried it on an empanada dough (similar to pie crust, but lower fat and an egg added), also with excellent results.
Smaug
February 21, 2020
Hey, I wasn't done- I learned to make pie crust (from my mother) using a combination of cutting and rubbing the butter in- the rubbing tends to coat the flour, thus shortening the dough more than you get by just cutting it in, while resulting in larger, flatter pieces of fat (tending in the direction of puff pastry). Fraisage (or "pushing off", in English) has a somewhat similar effect.
Soozll
August 8, 2018
I use this method for all my pie crusts. I got the recipe and method from Epicurious, it's from Gourmet Magazine from a cherry pie recipe from June of 2007.. There is also a video from Gourmet showing the process. The crust is sooo flakey and the method makes the dough much easier to handle (read: roll out) than any other method I've tried.
Rosalind P.
February 12, 2018
I came to fraissage out of desperation. I knew all the don'ts and yet my pie dough just wouldn't come together. After cutting in the fat, leaving some in pea size bits, all I had was crumbly dough. I knew not to add water...the source of all my failures in pastry. So I dumped everything out on the counter and just worked it all with my hands until, voila, a dough! Pate sucree is easier than brisee. But now I can make pies! Yay!
Mimi
February 11, 2018
Can you simply use this method with any standard pie dough recipe?
Emma L.
February 11, 2018
Hi Mimi! Personally, I fraisage mostly for pâte brisées and pâte sucrées. But you can definitely apply the method beyond that. For instance, our contributor, EmilyC, uses it here for a pie crust: https://food52.com/recipes/65286-cranberry-apple-pear-slab-galette.
jthelwell
February 11, 2018
I was halfway through the explanation when I said, "Wait, isn't this the way I've been doing it since I first made pâte brisée from MASTERING THE ART? Of course, I'm probably as old as your grandmother!
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