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16 Comments
ruhi G.
May 25, 2018
Hi people! I was wondering if the process and ingredients remains the same for hot and humid regions. I'm from Bombay, India so if someone who has tried this recipe in a similar environment (40 degree C temps and 70% of humidity and above) please do comment.
Smaug
February 28, 2018
I don't quite see how a starter that lacks lactose is going to develop the lactobacilli that make sourdough sour- is there that much lactose in the flour?
Windischgirl
February 28, 2018
Lactobacillus is everywhere...including in our own bodies. It's the same microbe that ferments kimchi and sauerkraut, yogurt and beer. You don't need a dairy source.
Heard a fascinating episode of GastroPod where they discussed starters and found there was great variety in people's starters. The difference depended on the bacteria living on the baker's (freshly scrubbed) hands.
Heard a fascinating episode of GastroPod where they discussed starters and found there was great variety in people's starters. The difference depended on the bacteria living on the baker's (freshly scrubbed) hands.
Smaug
March 1, 2018
That's not really the issue- you need to feed the bacillus enough to develop a strong colony in order to make an effective starter. Presumably there is lactose in the flour or sourdough wouldn't work, but I'm curious about the concentrations, and also whether there are alternative foods for lactobacillus that might be present. Yeast is in the air everywhere too, but you need to work at it some to develop a working colony. For the matter of that, MRSA is in the air everywhere
Windischgirl
March 1, 2018
I'm confused. Lactose is the sugar found in milk. It is not present in wheat or rye. However, there are starches in the flour that provide sugars to support the growth of the yeast and lactobacillus colonies. Most likely the sugar they consume is maltose.
Smaug
March 1, 2018
I think I'm confused- I read an article at one point, apparently oversimplified, that attributed the sourness to lactose being converted to lactic acid, but looking it up it's considerably more complicated, with various lactobacilli consuming various combinations of maltose, fructose and to some extent sucrose to produce both lactic and acetic acids (maybe more- it got more technical than I was ready to delve into). The fact remains that you are going to have to feed these beasties rather well to get a good starter. In my occasional experiments over the years, the starters that have worked well have included milk.
Windischgirl
March 2, 2018
It does take about two weeks to get a nicely active starter, if it's given daily feedings. My own starter is now 10 years old (!) and although it may go dormant between bakes, as long as I feed it per recipe and keep it in a warm place, it makes for an active dough and nicely risen bread. A sourdough may take longer to rise (3 hours versus 1 hour for commercial yeast) but that is well-compensated for by the improved flavor and the improved shelf-life of the bread.
No two starters are alike, so you may notice that your starter likes the benefits of milk, whereas mine gets plenty of lactobacillus and yeast from my 100-year old house!
No two starters are alike, so you may notice that your starter likes the benefits of milk, whereas mine gets plenty of lactobacillus and yeast from my 100-year old house!
Smaug
March 3, 2018
Probably so, though once again, my concern would be with feeding the microbes, not with initial access. At any rate, today's experiment- I made a poolish for pizza dough (1/4c rye flour, 1/2c AP, 1/2c water, a few grains of yeast) a week ago and never made the dough- the poolish is still alive, and I'm going to use it and see how that comes out. I never really went into sourdough much because I grew up on San Francisco sourdough, and since Larraburu closed I've never had a remotely satisfactory sourdough, but hope springs eternal...
Windischgirl
March 3, 2018
Your poolish should be fine! It may need a feeding to be at its best, though. If you used commercial yeast, it's a different species compared to sourdough (S. cerevisiae vs. S. exiguus or a Candida species). And you may not have a lot of sourness in your poolish as it hasn't had much time to develop the lactobacillus population.
Because yeast is a fungus, once it's established in a starter, it's pretty hard to kill (ask anyone who's had athlete's foot!). There's a symbiotic relationship between the yeast species and the lactobacillus species in a sourdough and depending on the feeding schedule (and the species, I would imagine) one gets varying levels of sour. And since they play nicely together, I imagine it's pretty hard to kill the established lactobacillus population in a starter as well. Magnus Nilsson of Faviken writes about a wooden kneading bowl belonging to his grandmother which was never cleaned; before baking he fills it with warm water and in a day the starter imbedded in the wood comes to life.
There are benefits to using a poolish apart from hoping for sourness; prefermenting part of the dough does add to the flavor and starts 'processing' the wheat (the understanding of which is beyond my college chem level comprehension!) making the dough easier to work with and improving its keeping qualities.
Being someone who is thrift-oriented, I would probably do the same if I had poolish waiting for me. Mangia bene!
Because yeast is a fungus, once it's established in a starter, it's pretty hard to kill (ask anyone who's had athlete's foot!). There's a symbiotic relationship between the yeast species and the lactobacillus species in a sourdough and depending on the feeding schedule (and the species, I would imagine) one gets varying levels of sour. And since they play nicely together, I imagine it's pretty hard to kill the established lactobacillus population in a starter as well. Magnus Nilsson of Faviken writes about a wooden kneading bowl belonging to his grandmother which was never cleaned; before baking he fills it with warm water and in a day the starter imbedded in the wood comes to life.
There are benefits to using a poolish apart from hoping for sourness; prefermenting part of the dough does add to the flavor and starts 'processing' the wheat (the understanding of which is beyond my college chem level comprehension!) making the dough easier to work with and improving its keeping qualities.
Being someone who is thrift-oriented, I would probably do the same if I had poolish waiting for me. Mangia bene!
Smaug
March 3, 2018
Actually I use a poolish for pizza dough mostly because the timing works well for me- I can start the process Saturday without actually having to do much, finish the dough Sunday in 5 min. or so, and, with some sauce from the freezer, I pretty well have Monday dinner defeated. I wouldn't say that this one smells particularly sour after a week, but one way or another the pizza will be fine.
Windischgirl
February 24, 2018
AJ, thanks for your comment. For those who are concerned about the cost of a kitchen scale, my hubby got me a digital one at a hardware store for under $20; USPS also sells a digital postal scale for about the same cost. Unless you are baking commercial quantities of bread, a scale that goes up to 80 oz (5 lbs) should be just fine.
Related note: my 5 minute task is doing the mise en place for my sourdough: measuring out the flours, water, and other ingredients, as well as refreshing the needed amount of starter. Next morning, it’s a quick process to put everything in the Ankarsrum and make bread!
Related note: my 5 minute task is doing the mise en place for my sourdough: measuring out the flours, water, and other ingredients, as well as refreshing the needed amount of starter. Next morning, it’s a quick process to put everything in the Ankarsrum and make bread!
AntoniaJames
February 28, 2018
Windishgirl, yes, I often do the same thing . . . when I refresh my starter the night before baking, I weigh the dry ingredients, weigh the water, get out my favorite flexible spatula for stirring, etc. It takes so little time, but makes all the difference in the world. ;o)
AntoniaJames
February 20, 2018
I'm puzzled -- and disappointed -- that the author of this piece did not include metric mass measures, and that the editors of Food52 allowed it to be printed in the state shown. Especially when making bread, it is not just more precise (essential, one might argue) but it's also much, much easier to weigh rather than to scoop and scrape. Think about it. Why on earth would anyone, if they had the choice, try to measure a stretchy, goopy starter in a measuring cup (?!) and then have to clean it, unnecessarily?
That 5-minute process was just doubled, at least, by the use of volume rather than mass measures. (When I first saw the heading of the article, I asked myself, how on earth can feeding a starter take 5 minutes? It's not a high level skill nor does it require any practice. When weighing, you can do this in under a minute, and the only thing that must be washed is the spoon you used for stirring.)
For the benefit of readers looking to do this most efficiently, may I respectfully suggest the following metric measures (convert to ounces if you must):
230 grams of starter (NB: A cup may weigh more of less, + or - 10 grams, or so, than this depending on how active the yeast in it has been during the day or so before measuring)
354 grams filtered water
600 grams flour
Salt - the recipe doesn't specify whether to use regular or kosher. For the quantities of other ingredients in this recipe, I recommend 12 grams. Of course, it doesn't matter whether you use table or kosher when weighing.
I hope you find this helpful. I offer it in the spirit of making a positive contribution. ;o)
P.S. Yes, I know that some of the bread recipes I posted on this site 7 or more years ago provide volume measures (none of those use a starter). I'm working on re-testing to update all of them. The bread recipes that were tested and photographed by the Food52 test kitchen are locked, so I'm putting links in the comments to the revised versions of those.
That 5-minute process was just doubled, at least, by the use of volume rather than mass measures. (When I first saw the heading of the article, I asked myself, how on earth can feeding a starter take 5 minutes? It's not a high level skill nor does it require any practice. When weighing, you can do this in under a minute, and the only thing that must be washed is the spoon you used for stirring.)
For the benefit of readers looking to do this most efficiently, may I respectfully suggest the following metric measures (convert to ounces if you must):
230 grams of starter (NB: A cup may weigh more of less, + or - 10 grams, or so, than this depending on how active the yeast in it has been during the day or so before measuring)
354 grams filtered water
600 grams flour
Salt - the recipe doesn't specify whether to use regular or kosher. For the quantities of other ingredients in this recipe, I recommend 12 grams. Of course, it doesn't matter whether you use table or kosher when weighing.
I hope you find this helpful. I offer it in the spirit of making a positive contribution. ;o)
P.S. Yes, I know that some of the bread recipes I posted on this site 7 or more years ago provide volume measures (none of those use a starter). I'm working on re-testing to update all of them. The bread recipes that were tested and photographed by the Food52 test kitchen are locked, so I'm putting links in the comments to the revised versions of those.
Audrey W.
February 19, 2018
If I want to make multiple loaves, usually I try to make 3-4, do I need to have a bigger starter? Or is 1 cup enough for multiple?
AntoniaJames
February 20, 2018
Yes, increase the amount of starter by the multiple you're using for the rest of the dough. ;o)
Rona
February 18, 2018
I made my own starter a few months ago and keep it in the refrigerator. It is really very little work. Once a week, but not every week, I take it out to make bread. I am usually pretty compulsive about measuring, e.g. using a scale when baking, but my bread making is not. I scoop out about 1 cup starter, add about 1 cup water, salt, and enough flour to make good looking dough. I mix up the flour (white, whole wheat, white whole wheat, rye), and sometimes add honey, oatmeal, or potato flour. I let it rise overnight, shape and left it rise again on parchment in a pie plate, then drop it in to a heated Dutch oven and cover.
The rest of the starter sits out overnight after getting fed about 1 cup flour, 1/2 c water. In the morning, it goes back in to the refrigerator. The rising times are unpredictable compared to using commercial yeast, so I make bread this way when I am not on a tight schedule.
The rest of the starter sits out overnight after getting fed about 1 cup flour, 1/2 c water. In the morning, it goes back in to the refrigerator. The rising times are unpredictable compared to using commercial yeast, so I make bread this way when I am not on a tight schedule.
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